Cork Flags and symbols

langerinexile
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Cork Flags and symbols

Postby langerinexile » Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:12 am

I have thought hard about this and am still somewhat reluctant to post this and I hate telling people what to do and I have always been a person who believes in freedom of speech and expression.

Sunday, was a huge disappointment but the salt in the wounds on the way home was to discover that in the world according to twitter that we are all signed up fully fledged members of the KKK (details of next chapter meeting to follow). I got into a tit for tat with a guy from school who I haven't seen in over twenty years defending the Cork supporters. 50,000 people should not be judged on the actions or beliefs of two people. I counted two Confederate flags, these days there appears to only be the one or two at any one game. There was an increase on that after the last national appeal at the Munster Football Final and I honestly believe it was the so called 'Streisand Effect' that resulted in the increased numbers that day and really didn't help that it was a Kerryman that was the spokesman making that call.

I am not going to accuse anyone on here of anything. If you have one of these flags and wave it at Cork games, I am not asking you to stop. What I am asking is are you familiar with its history, if not go and read up on it and if after that you still want to do it then as far as I am aware it is not actually illegal (but that doesn't appear in anyway clear from what I have read). Would anyone fly the swastika at a Cork game? If your answer is no then why would you fly the Confederate flag is a valid question to ask yourself.

GAA is a big part of my life (as it is for most people on here) but there is a world beyond on it (boring and all as it is), events in the States show that symbols are important to people. It may be a red flag to most of us but to someone else it may represent something much more symbolic and of deep hatred. Ireland is becoming much more multi-cultural society and I certainly would hate if a young black kid (or anyone else for that matter) felt he/she couldn't wear the red jersey because of a flag. What if he was the seconding coming of Ring?

Just to finish off, I want to say again, I am not telling anyone what to do, just appealing to us all to have a think about it, that's all.

Corcaigh Abú.
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Dorcha
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Re: Cork Flags and symbols

Postby Dorcha » Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:26 am

And would one fly the Rising Sun? And would one fly the Hammer and Sickle? And where does one call a stop to censorship? And why does one want to drag Cork GAA into a political discussion? For Cork supporters, it's a symbol for the Rebel county and nothing more. Those who read more into it than that should really examine their own motives.

This - as usual - has been blown out of all proportion by people to whom being politically correct is more important than fairness and justice.

Just to add - this is nothing new, as I'm sure you know, exile. People have thought about it for over fifty years, or so. It's used to support Cork with a bit of colour, like all the other flags, nothing more. Those who think it's use is racist are the ones who would want to think again
Matty Hislop
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Re: Cork Flags and symbols

Postby Matty Hislop » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:42 pm

Dorcha wrote:And would one fly the Rising Sun? And would one fly the Hammer and Sickle? And where does one call a stop to censorship? And why does one want to drag Cork GAA into a political discussion? For Cork supporters, it's a symbol for the Rebel county and nothing more. Those who read more into it than that should really examine their own motives.

This - as usual - has been blown out of all proportion by people to whom being politically correct is more important than fairness and justice.

Just to add - this is nothing new, as I'm sure you know, exile. People have thought about it for over fifty years, or so. It's used to support Cork with a bit of colour, like all the other flags, nothing more. Those who think it's use is racist are the ones who would want to think again


Agreed.
greatbleddyman
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Re: Cork Flags and symbols

Postby greatbleddyman » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:45 pm

I am asking you to stop....simple as that - JUST STOP.

Call me a reactionary right-on liberal pinko but even disregarding the history entirely, right now in 2017 that flag is co-opted by white supremacists, and recognised worldwide as that.

Surely whatever bit of craic you had waving that flag since you were a young fella is superseded by associating yourself in any way with that.
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tipp-ex
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Re: Cork Flags and symbols

Postby tipp-ex » Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:26 pm

By the way and I don't think I've seen it elsewhere online - I drove through Buttevant twice in the last 6 months. (City boy me). Has anyone else spotted yer man on the right corner as you come in from city side?. He has a serious set of international flags, I almost feel guilty every time I pass. Forget your internet, this man has it!!!
Twohands
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Re: Cork Flags and symbols

Postby Twohands » Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:43 pm

Sometimes you can be perfectly within your rights and still get it wrong. I am loathe to censor people too and as someone who has been going to Cork matches since I was knee high I have to admit when I was younger and didn't fully understand the background, I got a bit of a laugh out of the idea of us having a 'rebel' flag flying in the face of Dublin's Irish yankees. Now, however, the time has definitely come to put the flag away.

The difference between this flag and the rising sun is that they are not (rightly or wrongly) seen by most people as a symbol of the atrocities committed by people acting under them. The Confederate flag was always a symbol for what the south stood for and whatever your views on taxation, the views on slavery are something that no right thinking person should be willing to be associated with. Even if you can get over that, the flag has been adopted by hate spouting groups in the same way as the swastika was adopted by Nazi Germany. The fact that the swastika means many different things in some countries is irrelevant. It is a symbol of hate and I'd hope no Cork fan would fly it. The Confederate Flag is quickly assuming a similar status and for that reason I think it is beyond time to let it go.

The sad thing about this is that it will take up more air time than some of the truly anti democratic moves made by the CCB executive in the last few weeks. Let's bury the side show flag and focus on the real debat.
stfrancis
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Re: Cork Flags and symbols

Postby stfrancis » Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:46 pm

greatbleddyman wrote:I am asking you to stop....simple as that - JUST STOP.

Call me a reactionary right-on liberal pinko but even disregarding the history entirely, right now in 2017 that flag is co-opted by white supremacists, and recognised worldwide as that.

Surely whatever bit of craic you had waving that flag since you were a young fella is superseded by associating yourself in any way with that.


GBM, you are a a right on pinko liberal however like you but for differing reasons I think the flag should be dropped. At this stage it just allows right on people like laissez faire 'cork supporters' ala cooper et al to look down their noses at the gaa in general, I am always reluctant to bow to the newly appointed moral lords of ireland but on this occasion and for the sake of decency it should be dropped. I think also while its flying for cork games and the actual history of the flag is different to a neo nazi holding it aloft, while circumstances like what happened in charlottsville occurred it should certainly be put aside.
However I have highlighted your last sentence as I believe this argument is dangerous, during the troubles our friends from the north who wore facemasks constantly and always wrapped our national flag around them, should we not have dropped our national flag also on the basis that it was being associated with terrorism? Try telling a british person in warrington, manchester, guildford or birmingham at certain times over the last 40 years what they thought of the irish tricolour
Furthermore and opened up to others who advocate dropping this flag, should the same call be made to drop the flag of the ussr?????do you think many of our polish or baltic cousins view that as anything other then a flag of suppression? should the rising sun flag also be dropped, I can guarantee ask any chinese person what they think of that flag and you will get an answer............should our pinko liberal friends decide what is or is not acceptable to fly at a game? they know everything else maybe they can direct us in this area also?
While following the twittersphere on sunday I was interested to note imo of course that the majority of those so upset about this issue dont seem to be huge ga supporters in general however they have generated some amount of interest in this subject.
greatbleddyman
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Re: Cork Flags and symbols

Postby greatbleddyman » Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:20 pm

I'd differentiate this as follows.

Republican politics is a dangerous road but lets for sake of arguement say that the bell-ends in the US at the weekend decided for whatever reason the tri-colour represented them, and it became associated worldwide with the brain-puke they call ideals.

In that case the difference would be that we believe there is an inherent value in the flag and deserving some respect. A counter-movement, some kind of "not in our name" movement would be warranted.

BUT - what inherent value has that flag, what respect is it due. It's a historical artifact which has always represented some dubious principles. It has no real connection with us bar a historical fluke that it is predominant red.

My point is as a symbol it has no value to us but it insults massive swathes of the world. Why bother with it?
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Dorcha
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Re: Cork Flags and symbols

Postby Dorcha » Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:30 pm

greatbleddyman wrote:I am asking you to stop....simple as that - JUST STOP.

Call me a reactionary right-on liberal pinko but even disregarding the history entirely, right now in 2017 that flag is co-opted by white supremacists, and recognised worldwide as that.

Surely whatever bit of craic you had waving that flag since you were a young fella is superseded by associating yourself in any way with that.


Not a good argument GBM. If white supremacists decided to co-opt the Cork flag as their standard, then we should abandon that, as well? As for history, let's go to recent history. The Turkish flag has also been seen on the terraces. Should that be banned also? You do see the never-ending road down which this is leading?

I have no problem with people being informed of the history of flags, but telling them outright that they must stop using them is dictatorial. Inform them and let them make their own judgments. The flags are not illegal.
stfrancis
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Re: Cork Flags and symbols

Postby stfrancis » Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:48 pm

greatbleddyman wrote:I'd differentiate this as follows.

Republican politics is a dangerous road but lets for sake of arguement say that the bell-ends in the US at the weekend decided for whatever reason the tri-colour represented them, and it became associated worldwide with the brain-puke they call ideals.

In that case the difference would be that we believe there is an inherent value in the flag and deserving some respect. A counter-movement, some kind of "not in our name" movement would be warranted.

BUT - what inherent value has that flag, what respect is it due. It's a historical artifact which has always represented some dubious principles. It has no real connection with us bar a historical fluke that it is predominant red.

My point is as a symbol it has no value to us but it insults massive swathes of the world. Why bother with it?



Fair enough get rid of it I have no issue with it and the weekends actions in the US probably show more clearly it should be got rid of. However not just to you but to others, considering the meaning of flags and the other flags flown by cork supporters,perhaps a committee should be established to approve the flying of flags, perhaps with a membership from academia, the media, social influencers for example. Presumably this must happen otherwise we will continue to insult vast swathes of people around the world, surely it must be accepted that the hammer and sickle as a flag killed more people than any other flag including the swastika, this should not be flown, the rising sun whihc the japanese occupying forces flew in china, korea, the phillipines etc should be discarded
Otherwise we are allowing the continued insulting of people across the world just for our own cultural enrichment

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